LDS Left Exodus

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This post was deleted from the “Liberal” Mormon Facebook group, ‘LDS Left’, for being “anti-Mormon.” The poster Heather B. even went as far as to report this blog post for “copyright infringement.” Fortunately, mere conversation is not generally able to be copyrighted.

If you’re in the area and can make it, please do! Otherwise invite and share!https://www.facebook.com/events/454614047979137/
11 August at 18:00
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 4550 Lone Oak Rd SE Salem, OR 97302
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Like · · Unfollow Post · 11 August at 14:51 near Salem

Here’s the latest!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php…

  • Glee V: People need to remember that Social Media, especially facebook, makes it very difficult to stay private, even with a pseudonym on a separate facebook account. Even a retired tech dummy like me can find out stuff – as long as you have connections with folks who are tech savvy. Especially if before you were retired you were a journalist
  • Karyn S: Why not just go, have his say, and be done with a church he doesn’t agree with on so many, many different levels?Why turn this into a circus?
  • Glee V: Because, Karyn, IF this is the one and only TRUE church, and IF going through THIS church is the one and only way you can have a bona-fide relationship with Jesus, and therefore, with God, then, golly gee, what happens when the HUMAN BEINGS who run it make a human mistake? Do you just say, oh gosh darn it, I’ll just leave, and never go to Heaven, and never be reunited with the people I love? Or do you say, the HELL I am going to let other human beings follow their own prejudices and hang ups instead of Heavenly Father’s living WORD. The HELL I am going to let THEM stand between me and the Gospel, and my eternal Salvation. I am going to stand up and see this through.I mean, IF this is the one and only way, wouldn’t you?
  • Erik Kulick: They never said so, Ingrid, but I’m sure it was a big part of it.
  • Erik Kulick: I insisted on having a trial by Mormons who actually *know* me, but given the mandatory geographic assignment…
  • Erik Kulick: The point is, Karyn, my kids still go to this church. My sister and her family. My mother, aunt, uncle, and some of my cousins still go to this church. I may not worry about whether or not a God exists or whether or not JS translated golden plates, but I am a Mormon still and I have a right to fellowship as such.Additionally, I attend ALL types of religious services, not just Mormon ones. Speaking of “true churches”, Glee, the LDS church is the ONLY one to kick me out, let alone to set up a court which *they* turned into a *circus* by assaulting me and trying to pretend they were the police as they started the arrest without authority to do so.The members of this church need to wake up big time if they’re going to salvage their once precious religion.
  • Wendy D: If you want to make a change in any organization, the reality is that the best way to do this is within the framework of that organization. Radical thought and action is not part of the LDS culture and will be freaked, misunderstood and fought.
  • Wendy D: I meant feared…but freaked sounds better.
  • Andy L: They’re also, presumably, the only one in which you’re a registered member, so in some sense they’re the only one who could attempt to kick you out in this type of manner.
  • Keith L: Please tell me that you have denounced the book of Mormon, published your new name, cheated on your wife, taken a second wife, taken a second husband, started a mormon offshoot church, or served some kind of very alcoholic fluffy jello salad at a ward party and got the whole relief society drunk off jello shots and they you are not being excommunicated because you wore a dress!
  • Karyn S: I have a cousin who was ex’d and he still maintains family relationships. I have a friend who left the church voluntarily before they had a chance to ex him. He still maintains all of his family relationships. No one needs to be a member of this church to maintain family relationships.You attend other religious services and that’s fine. Have you officially joined them by taking their lessons and committing to them? If not, you are just attending – as you would be able to if you were not a member of the LDS church. The sign on the building says that visitors are welcome.
  • Karyn S: Glee, there are many ways to have “bona-fide” relationship with Jesus Christ. If it were not so, then there would be no other Christians other than just a few members of this church.The church does not exist to drive people away from either the church or from their relationships with Christ or their family. The church exists to bring people to Christ and solidify families.The church disciplinary hearing is a chance to explain actions and understand consequences.What I am at a loss to understand is, why is this church disciplinary proceeding being posted where “all are invited” to attend. The church does not decide the outcome of hearings by popular vote.If moral support is what is sought for this, then take a friend or family member along.
  • Colin S: This is a quote from the page. “Yo Johnson- Isn’t it funny how his excommunication hearing had nothing to do with the cross dressing…it had everything to do with interrupting meeting, attacking the church, vandalizing church buildings by taping anti-mormon literature to the doors, and smoking pot.”Me thinks we aren’t getting the full story here.
  • Colin S: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php…Likening paying tithing to money changers in the temple.

    Photo

    I decided to symbolically overturn a money changer table this morning at church, since I didn’t get to on Palm Sunday. — with Money Changer Table symbol at Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
  • Colin S: It’s all a little much if you ask me…
  • Jeremy J: There usually is more to the story when it comes to excommunication. Unfortunately the church cannot defend itself when the person decides to speak publicly about it.
  • Colin S: And this is what he was posting on the doors.
    My sympathy is limited. If this was purely an issue of wearing a dress to church I would absolutely agree with you, however I feel as though you have been rather confrontational about it.
  • Colin S: http://mormonreformation.blogspot.com/p/95-lds-theses.html

    mormonreformation.blogspot.com

    The Mormon Reformation – Posting 95 Theses is still alive & well! our new Facebook Group at: https://www.facebook.com/groups/MormonReformation/
  • Wendy D: I read several sources on this including the story about the arrest. I got the impression that Erik dressed in a similar fashion to Christ. Am I making that up? I got that impression from a story I read not really related to the church court. I am guessing there is more to this than a wardrobe choice.
  • Jared W: Well we ARE supposed to strive to be Christ-like.
  • Karyn S: If wardrobe choice were the issue, then all the women who participated in the “Wear Pants to Church” day would be receiving letters, too.
  • Colin S: Like I said, I am all for wearing dresses. And all for stiring the pot a bit. Not just taking everything we are taught at face value. But the list he was posting is filled with the sort of drivel you get on anti mormon sites. I know the church isnt perfect, but that doesnt change my desire to have a strong testimony, and that kind of crap just isnt testimony building.
  • Karyn S: Was that 95LDSTheses from Erik?
  • Colin S: Even if he didn’t write it, he was posting it in church buildings.
  • Jeremy J: That’s what’s so galling to me about the fact that he chose to post this here. He thinks that because we’re politically liberal that we’d be more willing to be disloyal to the church.
  • Karyn S: Men can wear attire such as Jesus did – if that were the point. Scots wear kilts. Some observant visiting Muslim men wear “dresses” – they are the formal attire for Middle Eastern men, too.
  • Karyn S: Oh….he posted that on church buildings?? Sorry, I’m going with the church disciplinary council on that one.
  • Colin S: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php…

    Photo

    Another set of theses delivered to a meetinghouse I walked to: — with 95 LDS Theses at Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

  • Karyn S: From the look of these links, it appears that the possibility of excommunication is merely a formality in the detachment process.
  • AstrandaLynn W: This whole story is shocking, but it doesn’t really surprise me. For personal and doctrinal reasons, I dropped out a few years ago, and I’m not going back. But I think I will just stay inactive rather than risk this kind of punishment for apostasy. My path now is the Middle Path of Zen Buddhism. It brings me peace. Peace, Love, Light and Namaste.
  • Keith L: Eric you’re not being excommunicated for wearing a dress. You are not being genuine with us. You’re being excommunicated for apostacy. Your “95 theses” we’re not an attempt at “reformation.” They are nothing but typical antimormon talking points. You’re not trying to change the church. you’re just trying to attack and bringdown. Don’t pretend you’re being exed for wearing a dress. what you did was disrespectful and inappropriate. and I’m not talking about what you wore.
  • Andy L: I very rarely ever encourage people to leave or join any church in this group (or elsewhere for that matter) since I generally don’t care if someone is or isn’t part of a particular faith. I have one exception though, people should be somewhere they actually get something fulfilling from. Eric, you have more issues with the church than I do and I’m the one who chose to leave in order to be honest about my belief, or lack thereof.
  • Keith L: This kind of reminds me of when the founder of Mormonthink told the media that he was being excommunicated for writing critical articles about Mitt Romney. He was excommunicated for publishing anti mormon materials on his website. Sorry dude, but going in to a church, any church, even your own church, for the purpose of making a scene and informing people of how wrong they are is just douchy.
  • Erik Kulick: Here’s another link to a post about what happened when I was assaulted by LDS leadership:https://www.facebook.com/photo.php…

    Photo

    I was assaulted by #Mormon leaders and then charged with ‘Trespass II’ and *theiSee more
  • Erik Kulick: Um, Karyn, I’m not sure why my level of activity at other religious services has to do with anything. I’ve informed ALL of the people I’ve fellowshipped with of my intention to return, and even have already taken the opportunity to do so with the local Muslims half a dozen times. If visitors are *truly* welcome at *every* LDS meetinghouse, then they should at least pretend to tolerate different types of people at least a fraction as much as the other denominations seem to be able to.A true “chance to explain actions and understand consequences” that pertain to a person about to get exed shouldn’t be mandatorily held in isolation, unless there are actual victims to protect. There is nothing wrong with inviting people to attend an event where such serious accusations are being made, so long as those involved refrain from interfering with the scheduled meetings and from preventing the inflow/outflow of other members to and from the building.The ladies who started ‘Wear Pants to Church Day’ are actually shutting down their group, likely because of church push back over my church attendance, so I wouldn’t be so sure there wasn’t action taken.First-off, Colin, you are posting the opinion of a person who seems to be someone who was at least present, if not involved in the altercation, so I’d be careful when relying on such sources. I am not “attacking” the church (though the LDS corp tries to convince members otherwise when dealing with dissent), I never interrupted a meeting that wasn’t already interrupted by another member or leader of the church first, taping theses (which weren’t “anti-Mormon) to buildings isn’t vandalism, and smoking pot, likening the *mandatory* condition of paying tithing for temple participation to money changers, and sharing information with members about issues that people have with some of the church’s doctrines and practices shouldn’t be excommunicable offenses. The fact that most of you feel quite the contrary is telling.Keith, you mean like Jesus, Abinidai, and Alma the younger?I never claimed that cross-dressing was the ONLY thing that I was being exed for. As a matter of fact, this post links to the event where a picture of the letter sent to me (only two days before the trial) notifying me of the churches *actual* charges against me is posted.You assume too much about me, Jeremy. I already realized from my experiences talking to most liberal Mormons that dogma reigns supreme. After all, why would y’all keep autovoting Dempublican, even when politicians from both sides of our one-political party’s isle attack due process and step up the sanitation of war with drones? What I figured is that I’d share this with ALL the Mormon groups I’m involved with, not just the “liberals.”
  • Andy L: I’ll autovote for the party that wants stronger banking regulations, environmental regulations, health reform, higher taxation on the rich, while protecting civil and voting rights, even if their war position is “the same as that other party except we aren’t in Syria or Iran like they could very well be”.
  • Andy L: Your level of activity at other services matters because you can’t be excommunicated from a church you don’t belong to.
  • Andy L: Seriously though, what did you expect? You mimicked the actions of someone who thumbed his nose at the Catholic church and went on to form his own church the end result being hundreds of years of wars in Europe between these reformers and the establishment.
  • Jeremy J: “You assume too much about me, Jeremy. I already realized from my experiences talking to most liberal Mormons that dogma reigns supreme. After all, why would y’all keep autovoting Dempublican, even when politicians from both sides of our one-political party’s isle attack due process and step up the sanitation of war with drones? What I figured is that I’d share this with ALL the Mormon groups I’m involved with, not just the “liberals.””Did you do that before I said anything? If so, I apologize for assuming too much.
  • Adam S: Erik-every person I know that has the issues you’re agitating about has chosen to leave rather than continue in an organization they feel is hypocritical.
    Be genuine. Be yourself. Intellectually, can you see how excommunication is a logical progression to your actions? You can’t behave out of doctrinal standards, visibly protest church policy and expect no response to be taken.What leads you to conclude your public behavior is not meriting a church response?
  • Karyn S: Grandstanding is not going to do anything except create fireworks and drama. That seems to be what the goal is.
  • Daniel D: “why would y’all keep autovoting Dempublican”really? how dumb
  • Jeremy J: I’ve found that many of the folks that reject the church for not being perfect are the same folks that reject the Democrats for not being perfect.
  • Wendy D: For me, being LDS is a choice. I grew up Lutheran and chose this church when I was 20. I read Martin Luther’s theses, I read the 95 LDS Theses. There was nothing that surprised me, but I though that several were a “stretch” and somewhat hyperbolic.I feel like change comes from within an organization even if the external pressure is the catalyst for initiating change.In my experience, every religious organization has inconsistencies and imperfect doctrine. The doctrine of the Virgin Mary being an intermediary to Christ is new-ish in the Catholic church (just to note one example). The problem that our church has is one of supreme exclusivity on “the truth,” and the “one true church.” I do not embrace that. I certainly don’t teach my kids that. I choose to stay in the church because it is the right thing for me, and I choose to believe that the pathway to God as we have prescribed is correct. All of the rest of the stuff is just noise. I have no idea how the Book of Mormon came to be, but I know that when I read that Book (irrespective of the controversy of its origins), I am enlightened, inspired, and my understanding is increased. Am I an apologist justifying historical anomalies and outright untruths to convince myself that this is the right church? Nah. I have my eyes wide open and know that this is right for me despite of human frailties, inconsistencies and historical things that I’m embarrassed about.I try to pick my battles wisely and build consensus for my ideas amongst trusted friends. I do feel that there are meaningful ways that the church has changed..even since I’ve been a member.I admire civil disobedience, but I’ve never seen it an effective way to affect change in a meaningful way.Peace!
  • Erik Kulick: I still value lessons from the BOM, even though I see that it is likely that JS made it all up. After all, I agree that “secret combinations” are bad, I just don’t understand how JS and co. felt that using re-purposed Masonry rituals to reenforce church loyalty jives with such teaching.Karyn, you can continue to speculate on my motivations like the LDS corp has chosen to (See judge not lest ye be judged), but that doesn’t negate the real motivations that exist.Andy, as far as the other religious groups are concerned, I’ve made my intention to return to those places quite clear. Heck, I’ve already been to the mosque a half dozen times…Adam, I can’t just *leave* the church alone, because they still think they have claims to *my* eternal family. Maybe they should rethink this eternal family concept if they can’t stand to be around entire swaths of of their “brothers and sisters.”
  • Jeremy J: If it’s all just fake, it makes no sense to care one whit what the church thinks about your family. People have the right to go to church, even if you think it’s fake and wrong, without you disrupting it. The same is true of any religious group.
  • Karyn S: If the reason you “can’t” leave the church is because you consider your family to be held as eternal hostages of sorts, then there must be some part of you that still thinks it all MIGHT just be true and your lashing out at it seems more like fighting within yourself more than against the big bad LDS Corporation. It would be a good idea for you to make your peace with it one way or the other. Continual conlict, whether internal or otherwise, is unhealthy.
  • Daniel D: why the hell would you care what a religion thinks about the after life if you think it is fake? makes absolutely no sense to me.
  • Adam S:Erik, you’re framing the fallout from your behavior as an “us” vs. “them” battle. You are not a David vs. a Goliath. You chose to violate church standards. You chose to publicly defy church teachings.If it is *your* eternal family, why aren’t you behaving in a way that your family would feel safe with you? You are playing fast and loose with your behavior. What makes you think that your Church family feels safe with you when you foment discord?Nobody in this forum has said they “can’t stand to be around entire swaths of their brothers and sisters.”What are your expectations? And, no, I didn’t ask you to leave the Church alone. Take off your filters and be honest with us about what your aims are. What do you want?
  • Karyn S: And, your FB profile lists your relationship status as “separated.” If I were about to lose my family on earth, I’d be doing everything I could to try to maintain the eternal aspect of it.
  • Adam S: Your own mother is calling you out for mistreating an older man at church :”I heard the man you initially confronted was a white-haired older man….. really Eric?”Pontificating about how the church is destroying families when 1. You’re separated and 2. Your mother is publicly calling you out on your behavior. Really??
  • Aaron P: Sorry this is happening. I know nothing about you or about the disciplinary council. All I can say is, “well, this sucks.” Everyone, we don’t really have adequate context to be judging this person. In fact, we don’t have adequate context to judge any person. People have been excommunicated wrongfully before, but whether or not that is the case here, let’s acknowledge that this must suck for Erik Kulick. Erik, the whole story sounds super weird. Social media is scary. I hope you and the people around you are doing alright.
  • Aaron P: I used to hold the opinion that disciplinary councils were in general always right, and that excommunicated people were all jerks, but that is simply not the case. people get put into disciplinary councils for “coming out” as LGBTQI (still happens despite the policy/doctrine changes), for standing up to bullying in Church by leadership, for mental health problems (I suspect the numbers would surprise us), for outing unethical business practices by fellow members, etc. Let’s withhold judgment.
  • Karyn S: Based on the information Erik has publicly posted…
  • Aaron P: Yeah, it’s weird…
  • Erik Kulick: I don’t *care* whether or not religion is fake, I care about the fact that far too many of my *fellow* Mormons are more worried about adherence by members to their precious commandments and the image of the church itself than they are about “Christ-like” love and how to exhibit it. For so many of you to make such bold, ignorant, and intolerant statements about me and what I’ve done shows that LDS Mormonism has a long way to go.My relationship with my family is MY business. It is also REALLY important to me. It’s precisely because I have two children who actively attend church with their mother, who I’m STILL legally married to, that I included Mormons in my ‘Cross Dress to Church’/’Dress Like Jesus to Church’ project.I will be releasing the audio/video of my trial day and of all the 30 some-odd services that I’ve attended, and y’all can see how much worse Mormons in general have treated me. I will gladly admit there were a couple of wards that at least showed tolerance if not compassion, but on the whole, the church is gonna have some ‘splainin to do.
  • Jeremy J: On one hand you say you’re a Mormon, on the other, you’re attempting to prove the Mormon church false, propagandize against the church, and make the case that Mormons are bad people. You’re disingenuous at best. Really, you’re just a straight up anti-Mormon.
  • Wendy D: What makes one anti-Mormon?
  • Jeremy J: Disrupting church services and posting anti-Mormon tracts inside churches, for one. Turning an excommunication trial into a circus might be another.
  • Daniel D: imagine that, making a fool of yourself on a day when people are trying to commune with the Lord and you expect them to treat you nice. I’m shocked, SHOCKED i tell you.you’re proving one thing about Mormons. They’re just regular folk like everyone else. They treat people nice to their best ability, and they have short tempers just like everyone else. what are you trying to prove exactly? that no one is really following the principles Jesus taught us? i’ll tell you dude, you didn’t need to make a fool of yourself to prove that.
  • Karyn S: Jeremy Jensen, “Really, you’re just a straight up anti-Mormon.”It sounds like the anti-Mormon antics and the break-up of his family are connected, but which came first? Either way, it seems to have resulted in a massive case of the bitter bug.
  • Adam S: If family is so important to you AND just your business, what do you call splattering them all over FB, getting your mom calling you out, and ruining worship services for many other families?Jesus said in Matthew 22: “love god with all your might, mind and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.” You are NOT acting loving. It’s been pointed out you’re behaving bitterly and trying to destroy faith. How can you honestly claim concern about Christ-like love when YOU WON’T LIVE IT??If your family is so important, and if it is so important to you that people are Christ-like in their love, what in the world are you doing by fighting people during their worship of the God of Love? Where is YOUR love and respect? If we are so deficient, teach. Not destroy.That’s why I ask (and you still haven’t answered): what do you hope to get out of this?
  • Erik Kulick: I have answered, Adam. I hope that people finally wake up and begin to treat each other like we are ALL God’s children.Why is sharing issues that one has concerning the way an organization is run with friends and family who also value that organization such an offensive thing?
  • Adam S: Ok Erik, you want people to wake up and treat each other like God’s children.You’re certainly not treating anybody like they’re worthy of love and respect. Sharing issues is one thing. Getting “in your face” and confrontational like you are- is a completely different thing.
  • Erik Kulick: How am I getting “in your face” confrontational? I was the one assaulted by THEM, remember?
  • AstrandaLynn W: Having listened to both audios, it sure sounded to me like tempers flared, common sense went out the window, and unnecessary force was used.
  • AstrandaLynn W: Erik, do you have video footage, so we can actually see what happened?
  • Bob: Hi my name is Erik and I’m a victim. *sniff sniff*
  • AstrandaLynn W: I read the 95 LDS Theses, and not all of them were anti-Mormon. Granted they were not faith promoting, but it does seem the Church has often had an anti-intellectual bias. What about what happened to the September Six, the liberal BYU professors who were ex-communicated for writing about Heavenly Mother, etc. ?
  • AstrandaLynn W: Really, I have come to the conclusion that all religion is man-made and therefore flawed. Religions have borrowed from each other, even Christianity. There is evidence that Jesus studied Buddhism, and many of his teachings parallel Buddha’s.There are stories that Buddha did many of the same miracles that Jesus did. Why not? Both were Enlightened Ones. And that is the case for many of the religions. Enlightened Ones tried to share their experiences, and their followers made a religion out of them.To me, Joseph Smith was an Enlightened One, and tried to share his insights and a whole cult of worship sprang up around him. One theory I read that made sense to me is that he was the last of the Reformers, nothing more, and never meant to start his own church. As it is now, I’ve read that Mormonism is well on its way to becoming the 4th Major Abrahamic Religion. Who knows, the story is not ended.
  • Adam S: So they came to you and assaulted you without provocation, is that it?Lets see. In this group alone, you’ve said the following things:
    – accused a poster of being “dempublican”
    – admitted to posting theses that contain anti-Mormon content in LDS chapels
    – accused members of not being able to “stand to be around entire swaths of their brothers and sisters”
    – admitted to trespassing and refusing to leave when asked to do so
    – admitted to apostasy
    – admitted that you won’t leave the church alone, though you have been asked to do soThat fits the common-sense view of being in-your-face confrontational. And that’s just on FB. If you’re doing these online, it’s a given you’re doing these IRL and triggering huge defensive reactions in people’s safe-zones. That’s like walking into a Muslim service and asking everyone to break halal, or going into a Jewish synagogue and passing out yellow Stars of David for members to wear on their clothing. You’re attacking Mormons where they practice belief. And then you’re getting mad when the Mormons get mad at you.Are you being equally obnoxious at other religions’ services?
  • Aaron P: dead horse. we’ve hashed and re-hashed the story. we’re at the analysis phase now, i think. Excommunication shouldn’t be used as an emotional reaction, no matter how logical it may seem.
  • Adam S: Agreed.
  • Karyn S: Excommunication is not being used as an emotional reaction. It is being used appropriately as a consequence for unrepentant behavior.
  • Adam S: And that’s the gist of it, Erik. Your behavior caused this consequence.
  • AstrandaLynn W: For what cause should he repent? For him speaking his truth, for cross-dressing, for being unorthodox and flamboyant in his way of presenting his message? He was within his right to free speech and assembly. And if he was being polite during Fast and Testimony meeting, it seems to me he had a right to speak his mind, like everyone else there, even if it wasn’t what the people wanted to hear, and not be escorted out of the chapel.
  • Karyn S: ^^ for posting anti-Mormon literature on the church doors.His “free speech and assembly” rights??? ::facepalm::
  • Andy L: There are no free speech and assembly rights when it comes to private organizations/churches.
  • Andy L: And if you watch the videos, he details some of what he talked about at F&T meetings and it was hardly polite.
  • Heather B: Andy it was something about voting republican and blood on their hands right? That isn’t polite and ideas my kids don’t need to hear about at church. I would be upset at having to explain that to my kids. Testimony meeting is sacred to me. It is chance for people to profess their love and belief in Christ it isn’t a time to use the pulpit to discuss politics. I don’t care whether I agree with the view or not.
  • AstrandaLynn W: Sorry, I stand corrected. I didn’t realize that, about the restrictions on free speech and assembly. And I didn’t know the details on what he said in F &T meeting. It sounds like he was out of line. I tried to wade through his long, VERY long blog post where he posted what seemed to be just about every detail of his whole journey, and a heated debate with his friends, family, and others. I couldn’t read all of it. It was too much, and too angry, and some of it was way above my head.
  • Aaron P: Since when did the law define what was decent and kind and polite and what Churches could allow to be said within the confines of their private property?
  • AstrandaLynn W: Honestly, Aaron, I wondered the same thing. I have always been of the opinion and understanding that the right of free speech and assembly had very few limitations. If I’m wrong, then what about the anti-abortion protesters that publicly assemble outside private clinics and harass women who are simply minding their own business and trying to do what they feel they need to do, what about the Westboro Baptist Church that go to funerals of service men and gays and harass the mourners, what about the protesters who show up in Temple Square at General Conference time? What about peaceful protests in general, Anti-war rallies, Gay Pride Parades, etc. Others may not like what they stand for, but, as long as they don’t cause trouble, aren’t they within their rights to speak their minds? Why would churches be any different? Are churches any different?
  • Andy L: Here’s an example: The Deseret News has moderators for their comment threads. That’s a limit on free speech but since they’re a private organization they can limit that sort of thing how they see fit.(I just realized I used the church owned newspaper as an example… that was coincidentally convenient for me).
  • Andy L: WBC protests still have to stand behind a certain line for their things and as for Temple Square… well if they’re standing on church property the church COULD do something about it (after all they once arrested two gay guys for kissing there)… they’re choosing not to in order to not make more of a scene I imagine.
  • Wendy D: I highly recommend taking a Con Law class. There are absolutely limits of speech in private AND public places. The WBC and anti-Mormon folks at TS are all on public property. Free speech is protected there. I’ve been to an anti-war rally on public property. You have to have a permit to assemble, and at my rally, the cops were everywhere to make sure things didn’t get out of hand. One of the reasons that the OWS movement ended in many places, SLC included was that it became a public safety issue when people died. Private property has even more restrictions than public property. “Free speech” does NOT mean that you can say whatever you want whenever you want.
  • Andy L: Are they? (the anti-mormon folks at TS) The church does own that part of state street. I don’t know if they set up inside or outside church property though.
  • Wendy D: The church bought part of Main Street in about 2001. You are not allowed to protest on church property. I was opposed to the purchase of Main Street. The case related to protestation on that once public street went all the way to federal district court and was remanded back to Utah.
  • Daniel D: Heh free speech in America isn’t what some people think it is. There really are limitations to what you can say and where you can say it. A church is private property. Your “free speech” is limited there.
  • Aaron P: I hate to say it AstrandaLynn, because you liked my comment and everything, but it was actually a comment advocating for people at church having the prerogative to tell people to go away for saying certain stuff, that is, legally, anyway. It was also basically a statement that just because we have laws that make it *legal* to do things doesn’t make those things moral or very nice.
  • AstrandaLynn W: Sorry, I misunderstood. That happens on the internet sometimes, you know. No problem. Anyway, this whole interchange of opinions and feelings has increased my knowledge, and understanding, and that’s a good thing. I hope I haven’t inadvertently offended anyone with my views and beliefs, either. That was never my intention here.
  • Aaron P: Nah, much more offensive stuff goes down than this thread!
  • Cara G: After reading all the comments, it does sadden me these church leaders who actually called him to the meeting are not willing to hear Erik out by allowing him to at least plead his case. I get the fact that they are unable to do anything to promote the changes he is proposing because (a) they most likely disagree and (b) have a specific prescribed role in the church. They are simply following excommunication protocol. However, he still is a member of the church and should be treated just like any other member in my opinion.
  • Heather B: Cara he was allowed, he was told to come back 6 and if he needed to reschedule he could. He choose not to do that.
  • Karyn S: Given his seemingly volatile behavior, it might have been unwise to allow him to just hang out for two hours.
  • Cara G: I agree, he should have either waited until 6:00 or rescheduled at that time. However, church leaders are often willing and even happy to see other folks even if it happens to be outside of their regularly scheduled appointment times. I could tell by the recording they were not at all happy to see Erik from the beginning.
  • Karyn S: Exactly, Daniel. All “freedoms” have limitations…and consequences.As President Hinckley, and probably others, said: You are free to choose your actions, but you are not free to choose the consequences.
  • Karyn S: A church disciplinary hearing is not a drop-in occassion.
  • Cara G: Not for somebody trying to change the rules.
  • Karyn S: ^^^ not for somebody who doesn’t play by rules or think they apply to him.
  • Daniel D: I’m glad we’re giving Erik a platform to spout his anti-Mormon rantings. This is exactly the purpose of the LDS Left. Imagine if a conservative Mormon shows up here. We are strengthening their view that liberalism is a fetid pool of members without a testimony who need not show up at church anymore.
  • Karyn S: It is time to stop commenting and let his thread die. The more people post other content and start new threads, the further down the page his goes.
  • Erik Kulick: AstrandaLynn, I will be releasing the video eventually, as well as all the audio from the 50 or so religious services I’ve recorded while attending this year.What ever happened to the post with the audio from the day of the apostasy trial, anyway? Did the admins finally cave to the demands of the masses and delete it? I didn’t receive a notice that the post was deleted; is it protocol to just get rid of posts with out letting the poster know when it happens and why?
  • Erik Kulick: Adam, to rebut your baseless assertions:1. Not once did I call a person from this group a Dempublican, but were I ever to do so, it simply means they belong to the singular political party that runs our govt.See More

    Photo

    So I guess the #LDS corp didn’t have as solid a case as they thought. #LGBT #Mormon #Jesus

  • Heather B: Just to be clear, are you claiming that SLC ordered your ex’ing?
  • Daniel D: Lol the train wreck continues
  • Wendy D: “What ever happened to the post with the audio from the day of the apostasy trial, anyway? Did the admins finally cave to the demands of the masses and delete it? I didn’t receive a notice that the post was deleted; is it protocol to just get rid of posts with out letting the poster know when it happens and why?”Erik, had the admins “caved to the masses” or been reactionary in any way, your post would have come down much sooner. A few weeks ago the admins had decided to let your post run its course and not censor you or it. When we thought the thread had run its course, you posted to it again poking at the near dead embers. It was then a majority decision of the admins to go ahead and delete it.There was an attempt to notify you, but your message box was not taking messages. I was not the one who deleted or attempted to message you, but this is what happened.I find this group and its members to be quite open minded, but I don’t think you have a lot of support here for your ideas. That in and of itself is not cause to censor. However, some of your ideas are anti-Mormon. The admins have followed your posts and the external content you referenced. It is the anti-LDS sentiment that has been worrisome (and I’m speaking only for myself right this second). You may not see it as anti-LDS, and that is OK. It is not my goal to convince you that some of your actions have been anti-LDS. You don’t have to embrace that interpretation of things.One of the things that has concerned me is that this group has been used as your forum for promoting your own personal agenda. I say that because, in my recollection, the only time you post is when it has to do with your excommunication issues…the invitation to your meeting for your church disciplinary hearing, the link to your audio account of what happened. I don’t see you being a contributor to this group in other ways. While that is certainly not required, it leaves me to deduce that your goal is in advancing a personal agenda. It seems to me that you are not interested in a “conversation” but rather that you’re interested in trying to convince folks that you are justified in your cause, your behavior and your actions.You are not finding support for your cause here. This is by and large a group of LDS faithful (with varying degrees of activity/engagement on that spectrum). When folks have read and listened to evidence as you have asked, they’ve drawn their own conclusions. When you’re not happy with the conclusions, you continue to try and bully people into seeing your point of view. IMO, that is not what this group is about.It was the continual pushing on the topic (and I’m not going to lie….many public and private pleas to remove your content) that finally prompted the admins to remove that post. You’ll find strong admins who try to be open minded, not censor and let conversations flow. Just because folks ask us to take down content or block individuals from the group, that rarely happens. There is a breaking point, however, and consensus was that you crossed it.You are entitled to do whatever you choose with your personal life. You are entitled to continue to advocate for changes that you feel need to occur in the church. That doesn’t mean that we all have to agree with your ideas, your advocacy positions or your methods.

    The group is an amalgam of invited participants–all somehow associated with the church. If your ideas continue to be largely anti-LDS, this may not be the right forum for advancing your message.

    I just wanted to try and provide you with an objective point of view. I sincerely hope that helps.

  • Alicia J: Erik, after discussing the previous post with the other admins, we decided to delete the previous post. I was the one who pushed the delete button after all was said and done. I tried to contact you directly to explain, but you could not receive messages, it wasn’t an option. I’m truly sorry for not being able to personally message you, but what Wendy said sums up the message I had planned to write you perfectly. I genuinely respect what you were trying to do, but continually pushing your personal platform in such a seeminly aggressive manner here and fairly out and out anti-Mormon sentiments has crossed a line and the previous post needed to come down. I would encourage the other members of our group to discontinue posting on the thread and let it sink. If you would like to further discuss Erik’s situation with him, feel free to contact him privately (fairly difficult though) or perhaps he could set up a group or page to further his platform and answer questions, etc. Erik, you’ve been a member of the LDS Left for over a year, you know from following posts that we, as a group are an eclectic mix of people. You also know that we as admins try not to censor our members, but there are also guidelines that we try to make sure are being followed. I want you to know that we appreciate you and we’re sorry for the outcome of your disciplinary hearing. We hope you continue to post and add another voice to the discussions; however this is not the platform to continue discussing the events surrounding your excommunication and pushing resentment for the leaders or advocating for apostasy. It is, however, appropriate to discuss transgender issues at Church in a global sense. Many thanks.
  • Erik Kulick: The trouble is no-one has actually pointed to ANYTHING that is anti-Mormon from my posts, Wendy and Alicia. Just because it took a while for the admins to feel the pressure from the group, doesn’t mean the post was taken down for any less of a knee-jerk reaction. Also, I *have* engaged with other posts in this group, I am just an infrequent visitor to FB. I have no desire for self promotion. I hate it actually, I just happened to realize the harms of clinging to dogma and the need to wake people up to the reality of the fact.Ignoring our problems won’t make them go away. You can continue to sensor the only LDS voices actually bringing attention to the problems, but it will only lead to more suffering in the long run.
  • Erik Kulick: No response? If the LDS church and its members want to claim to value the message of Jesus, they need to be willing to engage others on sticky issues like this one. The corporate church has taken the official position that people who challenge church dogma in LDS meetinghouses will be banned from all church property. At the very least they should remove “Visitors Welcome” from their buildings if they want to remain remotely honest.
  • Daniel D: Dude, let it go.
  • Aaron P: http://cheezburger.com/850387712

    cheezburger.com

    See more funny on Cheezburger.com
  • Adam S: Aaron: you win for best comment-thread hijack EVAR.
  • Aaron P: Thank you. That brightens my day. Seriously. Another thread-hijacking gem I use is “but Obama!” I never explain it, just leave it in there and let it ferment. People make it mean whatever they need it to mean so that they can get pissed off
  • Keith L: Seriously there is no response because the last post was on 10/3. It’s now 10/25 and we’ve moved on to debating drones again. Your tantrum inspired “the church is so terrible because they wouldnt let me make a scene at sacrament” pity party is not that important to us.
  • Heather B: Also Keith it is just the same go round over and over.
  • Adam S: I’m seeing a parallel here: we just saw a political battle fought because a certain party believed they were above the rules, that “they were saving everyone” from a certain, horrible fate. As we saw, of course that bit them in the butt. And they’rewhining about being not heard. Sorry. When protesting umpteen times doesn’t get your way and going round and round over and over doesn’t get you your way, you don’t get to dictate the outcome. Tantrums are so tiring and frankly, stupid.You’re being tuned out. You’ve ceased being relevant.
  • Karyn S: Some people create their own storms and then get mad when it rains.
  • Alicia J: Erik, your Oct 3 post did not warrant a response. As requested, please let this issue lie as we have moved on to discussing other issues, not your issues with the first presidency, your local leadership, doctrine, culture, etc. If you feel called or inspired to wear a dress, rock on, just keep your legs shaved and remember to wear panty hose, tights, or leggings in the winter, it gets drafty and cold. Keep fighting the good fight for equality, but after 120+ comments, you’re beating a dead horse. I wohld, however, encourage you to take a less belligerent approach, i think you’ll find that, instead of starting fist fights, it does more good. Also, people don’t wish to engage with someone that they feel is being over the top or narcissitic. They also tend to stay away fr or become frustrated with those that they find hijack boards and groups. Again, I encourage you to start your own group so you can focus entirely on this issue, that way an old thread that folks have stopped commenting on long ago can be let go. Please direct any response to me or anything else you wish to say to the admins via pm. We will noy spar with you any longer, but for the last time, please move on.
  • Alicia J: (Please excuse typos)
  • Bart T: Move on Erik. You are not finding much sympathy among LDS Left groups. . Your cause is going no where.
  • Jared W: Somebody needs to get off his cross. (looks at Eric)
  • Phil B: I’m sorry, but the Church is not the place for your particular political arguments – I don’t like it when either side (right or left) uses the pulpit to preach politics any more than I like it when Michelle Bachmann continuously professes her faith in Jesus from the floor of the House.Something tells me there’s a lot more to this than politics.
  • Erik Kulick: Alicia, my October 3rd post DID warrant a response IF you want to maintain a group that encourages dialog. I refuted your claims, yet you (and every other group member who felt inclined to post on either thread) failed to produce ANY evidence that show how my posts here or elsewhere were anti-Mormon. Just an update, my LDS wife was told by her (I’m assuming Mormon) lawyer that she could move to UT w/ the kids, even though he helped her write up a divorce motion that indicated that I would be able to watch the kids while she was at work at the very least. Thankfully the judge set aside the divorce, but I still have to wait till at least December before I see the kids.If only y’all would speak up in church about these terrible abuses of “apostate” members…
  • Daniel D: okay time to block Erik Kulick.
  • Erik Kulick
    Write a comment…<span id=”mce_marker” data-mce-type=”bookmark”></span><span id=”__caret”>_</span>
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About emkulick

I cross-dress to religious services of all sorts to inspire critical thought as I work toward a "heaven" in the here-and-now.
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